Firearms effectiveness

[CBR]

Interesting article on the effectiveness of shot placement.

http://westernrifleshooters.blogspot.com/2010/03/shoot-until-target-changes-shape-or.html

 

[drmitchgibson]

Bullets are potentially effective. A Segway with a deck-mounted harpoon gun is really the hot setup for personal defense.

 

[dennishoddy]

Interesting article on the effectiveness of shot placement.

http://westernrifleshooters.blogspot.com/2010/03/shoot-until-target-changes-shape-or.html

Ok, I read the whole article.
What I know is that death occurres with loss of blood to the brain, and injuries to the spinal cord/brain. The faster the brain ceases to function, the quicker the death.
I have issues with the claim that a lung shot requires bed rest in lots of cases.
Having been ex military, and a lifetime hunter with a ton of deer and other game killed, I can only think
It had to be a .25 shot through heavy clothes or something.
I've killed deer with everything from a .45acp to a 30-06, and performed autopsies on every one of them as well as dozens of others shot by fellow hunters
One can literally blow their hearts/ lungs into mush, and they will most likely make 50 yds or so before expiring. it takes that long for the brain to loose pressure. In a human, that's long enough to get off another shot, or more.
As the article stated, a low spine shot only incapicates the lower extremities. I can buy that. C5 and C6 renders the hands and lower body innective, but does not necessarily cause death either.
The old saying, shoot until they quit moving comes too mind.

 

[drmitchgibson]

In the TDSA class I took, Marshall Luton said he practices drawing and firing six shots, Bill Drill-style. I remember this as relating to practicing for defensive shooting, and whenever it crosses my mind it seems like a better plan each time.

 

[argyle64]

I thought it was a great article! One of my firearms instructors at FLETC had this conversation with me.

Instructor: That's a nice big hole you have in your target there.
Me: Thank you, sir.
Instructor: You know, it's harder to stop the bleeding from multiple holes rather than one large hole.

Ever since that discussion at FLETC I have changed my technique for practicing at the range. I load up my magazines just as I would have them on my person while off-duty and I no longer take my time and aim for the "X". I fire at a rapid pace and make sure all my hits are in the scoring rings. It doesn't matter which ring my holes are in as long as they're within the outer most ring.

 

[Jefpainthorse]

I have read a stat in multiple references that says about 80% of folks shot once survive. I understand the myth as this guy represents it... but I hope people don't misunderstand his POV.

Center mass is were the bonus stuff lives. Heart, lungs spine, liver, big blood vessles. In my mind, shooting center mass increases the odds the bad guy will shut down quicker than shots landing in his fringe.

Two learnings one should take away from the totality of the opinions out there:

One shot won't stop a threat

One shot should not put YOU out of the fight. (statistically anyway)

Shooting to preserve ones life is a serious skill. I really hope no body who reads this guy (no one here I'm sure) will take his rational as an excuse for justifying marginal skills.

 

[TroyF]

I have read a stat in multiple references that says about 80% of folks shot once survive. I understand the myth as this guy represents it... but I hope people don't misunderstand his POV.

Center mass is were the bonus stuff lives. Heart, lungs spine, liver, big blood vessles. In my mind, shooting center mass increases the odds the bad guy will shut down quicker than shots landing in his fringe.

Two learnings one should take away from the totality of the opinions out there:

One shot won't stop a threat

One shot should not put YOU out of the fight. (statistically anyway)

Shooting to preserve ones life is a serious skill. I really hope no body who reads this guy (no one here I'm sure) will take his rational as an excuse for justifying marginal skills.

It's not enough to shoot the bad guy til you think he's down. You have to shoot until he knows he's down. Sound about, right?

 

[CBR]

What about the pharmacist? How does that play out?

 

[argyle64]

It plays out very badly when you have a DA like we do here in this county.

Besides, his mistake was not shutting his mouth and not "lawyering up".

 

[Jefpainthorse]

What about the pharmacist? How does that play out?

Erslander made 2 mistakes
He videotaped his actions (non intentional -security cam)
He reloaded... (or retrieved a second gun-- it's been a while since I saw the tape) chased a guy outside... then RETURNED to shoot the kid on the ground some more.

Civilians (as it seems) can't just "shoot some more" for the heck of it.

 

[TroyF]

No, his mistake wa shooting after the threat was over. Way over.

By my earlier post, what I mean is stay vigilant and hit so hard, so fast, that you take the desire to fight out of the bad guy. Change in behavior is what you are looking for. That doesnt mean shoot because you "can".

 

[CBR]

Points taken

 

[Jefpainthorse]

I thought it was a great article! One of my firearms instructors at FLETC had this conversation with me.

Instructor: That's a nice big hole you have in your target there.
Me: Thank you, sir.
Instructor: You know, it's harder to stop the bleeding from multiple holes rather than one large hole.

Ever since that discussion at FLETC I have changed my technique for practicing at the range. I load up my magazines just as I would have them on my person while off-duty and I no longer take my time and aim for the "X". I fire at a rapid pace and make sure all my hits are in the scoring rings. It doesn't matter which ring my holes are in as long as they're within the outer most ring.

Back when I learned what little I know about LEO shooting... our instructor was adamant about one thing.
Pick a spot on your target... and aim at that spot with sights. Back then "flash sight picture" was the latest rage. Seems lot's of folks could miss a 48 Husky chest broadside (at 10 feet) if they did not pick a shirt button, pocket or patch of plaid to actually focus on while sighting the pistol.

I have never had to shoot a person... but I can tell you this. Aim at a big brown patch of fur (gohphers to deer for me) and you will come up empty. The trick is learning the firearm well enough so the brain manages the sight picture.

That's what that "second nature" thing aways meant to me... the gun runs on its own... the brain makes the decisions about all the other stuff you have to process in a fraction of a second.

 

[TroyF]

That last line says it all!

 

[Prdator]

No, his mistake wa shooting after the threat was over. Way over.

By my earlier post, what I mean is stay vigilant and hit so hard, so fast, that you take the desire to fight out of the bad guy. Change in behavior is what you are looking for. That doesnt mean shoot because you "can".

This,

The Pharmacists made many mistakes, but the fist one was at the gun store.

I've trained with Higinbottom and he is one heck of a shooter!!!! I think he has a really good handle on how and what to do.

 

[Prdator]

Back when I learned what little I know about LEO shooting... our instructor was adamant about one thing.
Pick a spot on your target... and aim at that spot with sights. Back then "flash sight picture" was the latest rage. Seems lot's of folks could miss a 48 Husky chest broadside (at 10 feet) if they did not pick a shirt button, pocket or patch of plaid to actually focus on while sighting the pistol.

I have never had to shoot a person... but I can tell you this. Aim at a big brown patch of fur (gohphers to deer for me) and you will come up empty. The trick is learning the firearm well enough so the brain manages the sight picture.

That's what that "second nature" thing aways meant to me... the gun runs on its own... the brain makes the decisions about all the other stuff you have to process in a fraction of a second.

"The gun runs on it's own" Im all about that!!!!!! My nephew is over in the Stan shooting and getting shot at on a daily basis. He's been in a bunch of training with me and many of the instructors I've hosted including the Man TroyF himself. I asked how that has benefited him over there and his response was that it allows him more ability to THINK what he needs to be doing instead of wondering how to run the gun. Its worked well for him he's saved his guys several times.

John Farnam talks about how we learn and the process that we go though.
Fist we are Un-Consciously Incompetent, we don't know what we don't know, then we are Consciously Incompetent, we know it but cant do it.
then Consciously Competent, we know how but have to think though it. then we get to were we should all strive to be. Un-Consciously Competent!!!!! we don't think about it, it just happens.

 

[J.t. Stapleton]

Back when I learned what little I know about LEO shooting... our instructor was adamant about one thing.
Pick a spot on your target... and aim at that spot with sights. Back then "flash sight picture" was the latest rage. Seems lot's of folks could miss a 48 Husky chest broadside (at 10 feet) if they did not pick a shirt button, pocket or patch of plaid to actually focus on while sighting the pistol.

I have never had to shoot a person... but I can tell you this. Aim at a big brown patch of fur (gohphers to deer for me) and you will come up empty. The trick is learning the firearm well enough so the brain manages the sight picture.

That's what that "second nature" thing aways meant to me... the gun runs on its own... the brain makes the decisions about all the other stuff you have to process in a fraction of a second.

Shoot faces... Osama would agree

 

[aeropb]

Just because you shoot something doesn't mean its going to die. You have to kill it. Some things take more killing than others.

 

[argyle64]

You have to "kill it till it's dead".

 

[shootingbuff]

Back when I learned what little I know about LEO shooting... our instructor was adamant about one thing.
Pick a spot on your target... and aim at that spot with sights. Back then "flash sight picture" was the latest rage. Seems lot's of folks could miss a 48 Husky chest broadside (at 10 feet) if they did not pick a shirt button, pocket or patch of plaid to actually focus on while sighting the pistol.

I have never had to shoot a person... but I can tell you this. Aim at a big brown patch of fur (gohphers to deer for me) and you will come up empty. The trick is learning the firearm well enough so the brain manages the sight picture.

That's what that "second nature" thing aways meant to me... the gun runs on its own... the brain makes the decisions about all the other stuff you have to process in a fraction of a second.

Dang it i was going to make comment on this lol
How is this. Aim small miss small.

There have been untold number of hits on a threat and they survive / or at least able to do function.

Every shot winged out could at very little more distance not be a hit on target. Being excited my give enough margin of error to take rounds off target.

Old story of mine ., please hang in there.
I ran a stage with two strings (I hear the groans) Any way 2 strings one shot each. I took the scenario out of the armed citizen. It did not give a lot of detail so I fudged on distance (but got my point across) One threat one round per string. First string low ready one shot CoM. Two shooters missed..., AT FOUR YARDS! One was a LEO and one was on his way to being a master - both experienced shooters. String 2 Aiming at the head box one round to said head box. Two missed again - a different two shooters, again both experienced shooters and again at four yards! The shooter who was on his way to being a master was slow.... - he realized he had to aim.

Many cop stories, usually it seems NY, shoot many rounds by multiple LEOs and miss at close distance. Not beating LEOs up at all. If your military, LEO, or fudge packer if you are not a gun person your not a gun person.

Want examples of shoot until the threat stops., look at what the FBI and friends did to the to the road gangs and to the gangsters 20-40s.

One has to know at what distance, angles, shooting positions, under what conditions one will hit the target at what speed. These days I shoot at 7 yards like I used to 15. Skills are perishable. That is why every match should be a ruler of how you did x,y, and z on that day under those conditions.