Buying and selling guns in private sales

thebrasilian · Dec 9, 2012

I just came across this article with little information except that they guy has been buying and selling guns:
http://irmo.patch.com/articles/gaffney- ... nt_5655670

"An Upstate man who entered a guilty plea in federal court on Monday for selling firearms without a license sold items at a gun show in Columbia.

David Hopper, 59, of Gaffney, plead guilty in a federal court in Florence, to unlawfully engaging in the business of dealing in firearms, United States Attorney Bill Nettles announced Monday.

Authorities say from July 2003 to June 2012, Hopper purchased and sold firearms without a federal firearms license.

Hopper sold the firearms at various gun shows, including those held at the Florence Gun and Knife Show, the Jamil Temple Gun Show, and Chesnee Flea Market.

United States District Judge Terry L. Wooten of Florence accepted the plea and will impose sentence after he has reviewed a presentencing report, according to the U.S. Attorney's Office in Columbia.

The maximum penalty Hopper can receive is a fine of $250,000 and/or imprisonment for five years, plus a special assessment of $100.

Agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives investigated the case.

Assistant U.S. Attorney William E. Day, II of the Florence office handled the case."

Are there limitations on private sales?
Anyone know what this guy was doing wrong?

Frost · Dec 9, 2012

**snip**
The relevant Federal law is United States Code Title 18, Section 921 Firearms, which begins with definitions: (11) The term ?dealer? means
(A) any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail,
(B) any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms, or
(C) any person who is a pawnbroker. The term ?licensed dealer? means any dealer who is licensed under the provisions of this chapter. OK, fine. But what does "engaged in the business" actually mean?
A better description is found in the Bureau's published rulings.
The Bureau examined the term "engaged in the business"
and published the result in ATF Ruling 75-31.
Note: They published the ruling when examining dealers in explosives.
Since U.S.C. 18 Explosives uses the same definitions as U.S.C. 921 Firearms,
the ruling applies equally to the business of firearms, since
identical definitions and terms are used in Section 841 for explosives
and Section 921 for Firearms.

So here it is:

ATF Ruling 75-31Although the term ?engaged in the business? is not susceptible to a rigid definition within 18 U.S.C. Sections 841 through 848, it is interpreted to imply an element of continuity or habitual practice; an element clearly present in the operations of companies described herein.Clearly, if you buy a gun at a gun shop and immediately resell it for profit ( Woo Hoo !!! ) you would not exhibit an "element of continuity of habitual practice." If you did that twice, or three times, you still would not exhibit continuity or habitual practice. I bet you can do it a dozen times per year when the opportunity arrises, and still not be habitual. You gotta use your own good judgment. Clearly they are on the lookout for one who behaves like an ongoing business, not just to behave like a guy who makes a good buy and resells it for extra cash.

So, exactly how many times can you resell a gun and NOT be habitually "engaged in the business"?
Unfortunately, as the ruling notes, there is no rigid definition in U.S.C. 18.
So use your own good judgment, and don't be afraid to let conservative advice kick in.
If in doubt, don't do it.
If you do it once or twice, no big deal.
Maybe more.
If you wanna REALLY do it habitually, you're on your own.
**snip**

craigp · Dec 9, 2012

If this is the guy I heard about, he was selling at gun shows and at local jockey lots on a regular basis and in large enough quantities to make it questionable from a private, occasional sale standpoint.

armaborealis · Dec 10, 2012

Engaged in the business is defined (478.11):
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c= ... .1&idno=27

Dealer. Any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail; any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms; or any person who is a pawnbroker. The term shall include any person who engages in such business or occupation on a part-time basis.

ATF has also explained how they interpret it:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curios- ... definition

The term ?engaged in the business,? as applicable to a firearms dealer, is defined as a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.

That is pretty clear to me. If you buy and sell firearms with an intent to make a profit, you file tax deductions as a business, you maintain inventory and business licensing/insurance, and you do so to pay the rent, you're definitely operating a business. If you admit a substantial profit on a sale or series of sales then you may be "in the business."

As long as you steer clear of the business aspects most folks should be fine with conducting multiple private transactions each year. Make trades/sales/purchases to enhance your collection or as a hobby. Do not wheel and deal with the purpose of making a profit or paying the rent.

Tigerstripe · Dec 10, 2012

1.ill bet the 2nd ammendment doesnt see it that way.

2. if i have 17 million dollars in the bank, and sell as many guns as this guy did, that would make it a hobby cause its not making as much money as sitting on my butt. so if you got money the rules dont apply.