Are polymer tipped bullets legal to carry?

[Wormydog1724]

And I agree about not using your most expensive gun to kill them, that's why I bought a Glock. They're cheap and semi reliable. At least more reliable than a hi point. Lol

 

[poopgiggle]

And I agree about not using your most expensive gun to kill them, that's why I bought a Glock. They're cheap and semi reliable. At least more reliable than a hi point. Lol

Crap I need to get the Baer out of my night stand.

 

[shootingbuff]

Any halfway decent lawyer could undermine your credibility and judgment if you used ammo that's marketed as it's designed for zombies. The circumstances of the shoot are irrelevant.

You gotta think like the opposition.

And in this case, you are giving them ammo (ha) to use against you!

Any halfway decent lawyer could undermine your credibility and judgment if you used ammo that's marketed as it's designed for zombies. The circumstances of the shoot are irrelevant.

You gotta think like the opposition.

And in this case, you are giving them ammo (ha) to use against you!

Where can one find case study of ammo being the deciding factor of a guilty verdict? Not saying it wont happen at some time. My worries are about being able to defend my family if that need arises. I typically use LEO ammo because it is good ammo. 124 / +p gold Dots in the 9x19, Golden Saber 125 and 158 +p LSWC-HP in 38 spc, Ranger and HST in 40, Ranger and Golden Saber in 45ACP. Where i deviate from this is in the 380 which I use Buffalo Bore, but it uses a GD. Like I stated it doesn't hurt to try and cover all bases but "I" don't believe the ammo used unless the hollow point is filled with glass, mercury or some other poison etc I .e modified ammo is going result in a guilty verdict. Just me and i give no legal advise nor have I slept in a Holiday Inn.

 

[shootingbuff]

And I agree about not using your most expensive gun to kill them, that's why I bought a Glock. They're cheap and semi reliable. At least more reliable than a hi point. Lol

Unless modified if you shot one you shot them all for the most part as well within the same frame size.

 

[shootingbuff]

I dont want to go to jail because my tip was green not red....

Try the clinic down the street.

 

[dennishoddy]

Why would anyone think that the ammo name would have any bearing in court proceedings...

This pretty much sums it up.
The fellows on ARFCOM did a research on this very topic, and did not find one case where a DA used a reload, specialty bullet, HP, or whatever round was used to take out a bad guy. Its pretty much internet lore in their research.

Ain't sayin its not possible, but to date it hasn't happened unless something current has happened.

 

[shootingbuff]

probably stay away from the zombie label. I dont want to go to jail because my tip was green not red....

That could be considered funny

 

[poopgiggle]

Mas Ayoob wrote the following in The Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry

Two real problems come up in court with handloads. In New Jersey v. Daniel Bias, whether the death of a young woman was suicide or murder at the hands of her husband came down to forensic evidence testing, to wit, the determination of how far the gun muzzle was from her head before the fatal wound was inflicted. However, the death weapon was a Smith & Wesson Model 586 revolver charged with very light reloads in 38 Special +P cases. The police insisted on doing their gunshot residue (GSR) testing with actual +P, which leaves GSR for a considerable distance, and there was none found on her head or hair. Defense experts tested reloads duplicating what the husband said he had made up and put in the gun, and could have shown that these wouldn’t have left residue at the distance the gun was when the defense believe it discharged in the victim’s own hand.

However, to make a long story short, that evidence never got in. It would have required the court to take the defendant’s word for the handload “recipe.” Even your reloading records, meticulous as they may be, won’t help. You see, the evidence was manufactured by the defendant, and that goes for the records as well as the ammo. You can’t prove it wasn’t some BS you came up with afterward to get away with murder. I have challenged many Internet advocates of defensive handloads to find a case where the defendant’s records or testimony as to load was accepted as GSR evidence. None has ever come up with a case.

...

Another thing to worry about with handloads is the argument, “This man was so intent in causing horrible, deadly wounds that regular bullets weren’t deadly enough, so he made his own extra-deadly bullets!” That was the BS pulled by the prosecution in State of NH v. Sgt. James Kennedy. That argument was shot down by Jim Cirillo as expert witness for the defense. However, every courtroom argument is like a gunfight: it’s better to avoid it than to have to fight it, and every now and then, the other side can get lucky and win. By the way, remember those two cases the next time you hear on the Internet, “There has never been a case of anyone getting in trouble for using handloads.” The Kennedy case ended with an acquittal, and that was justice. However, the Bias case went through three trials before the third jury found the kid guilty of Manslaughter and sent him to prison. Both his lawyers told me they felt that if he’d had factory ammo in the gun, they don’t think he would have been convicted.

These are the only actual two cases I've heard of where reloads were a thing.

 

[shootingbuff]

Thank you for your research.
Glad this thread is in reference to factory ammo.
Glad my ammo makes PF - barely Yes your honor I was only using min PF ammo, so yes my reloads are weak. I used them because I know for a fact that my Black Talons (Yes I still have 2-3 boxes) are so deadly just mentioning them would had decapitated poor bad guy. I only wanted to sting him and chase him out of the house because these loads barely penetrate a wet cardboard target.
Really? have to accept records? How about penetration and the deformation of the bullet as gospel? I.e run tests on results of the found bullet and compare.
As stated better not to have to worry about it, but one has to be reaching if one is going after the ammo used if not modified with poison or some such Stupid idea. If your lawyer sucks well get a different one. One reason to take Ayoop's classes and live in a more gun friendly state. That stated only 2 cases where it came up and both with reloads that went for the good guy.
Lastly - remember Ayoob makes his living as an expert. A little fear is good for business

 

[McGuire]

Any halfway decent lawyer could undermine your credibility and judgment if you used ammo that's marketed as it's designed for zombies. The circumstances of the shoot are irrelevant.

You gotta think like the opposition.

And in this case, you are giving them ammo (ha) to use against you!

Im not a lawyer, but if Im putting ammo into my firearm that I use for personal defense then I want the round I use to kill the guy, not instigate a tickling competition. If a judge asks me why I bought ammo labeled as "zombie killer" ammo, I can say it was a novel idea and I happen to like zombie movies, as millions of other Americans do, its ballistically the same thing as Hornady Critical Defense, which is a popular SD round and this was cheaper. I dont see how that could be used as "ammo" for the prosecution to tell me I used excessive force, or something along those lines. I used the force I deemed necessary, within the rights that are afforded me by the law. How is that going to be any more convictable than someone using a 12 gauge shotgun with 00 buck. Just seems like a non-issue.

 

[WillR]

One thing to consider is the civil case after you are cleared of criminal charges. I have heard of more lawyer nonsense coming up in these trials. Kinda like throwing everything out and seeing what sticks. There have even been cases where the argument was why did you shoot the bad guy more than once. I think the above referenced book had a case where the lawyers were arguing the defendant (good guy) had malice in his heart because he carried two back up magazines. The defense was that is what cops do. It worked.

Anything you can do to first avoid a bad situation and then minimize evidence against you is a good thing.

 

[Chambers]

Jerry and McGuire, you'd be terrible lawyers. You are too logical!

 

[shootingbuff]

Jerry and McGuire, you'd be terrible lawyers. You are too logical!

Why thank you lol.
Note I did say cover the bank account etc.. I just don't feel normal bullets/loads in a good shoot is going to decide anything. Hold up and follow my reasoning. If DA wants to try and charge you they will. It goes to trail. If you have a sucky lawyer defending you you might be buggered and better find out early and get a new lawyer. Folks will try to do what they think they can get away with for whatever reason. That stated it gets back to was it a good shooting? That is what has to be proved. Not that I made killer zombie special die instantly +5 vs BadGuy bullets. That is what the defense has to keep bringing any argument back to. If they can not do that what does it matter if you ran over someone once or 50 times or shoot them with a round carried by LEO round or not. Matter of fact: oh you carried the police rounds that they have tested extensively and found to do the most damage! Therefore good citizen you intended to kill him and you shot him knowing there was a good chance of doing just that! How long good citizen have you been planning and carrying that ammo or ammo similar to it? Ah ha so for most if not all your adult life you have been planning and waiting and dreaming of such a time that you could use that most lethal ammo! Tell me this honest citizen., do you stroke yourself when you think of that ammo and what the reports indicate it can destroy? Do you fondle yourself as you fondle the bullets? You sir not only planned this but are perverted and should be castrated then hung. It gives me the creeps thinking of you dreaming of a scenario were you can use those lethal of all bullets and knowing you wake up as from a wet dream! I tell you, no I demand the jury to use a dull knife when Mr Good and Honest citizen is being castrated! It makes me sick knowing how you must have felt when you pulled the trigger and that bullet, the very same bullet that the Law Enforcement community has spent valuable time and money researching for the most effective round. Were you hard? Could you drive railroad spikes? We should charge you with having to pay for the ammo test the local PD paid for all of its ammo test since you are the one that got something out of it. I curse you and all like you and I hope you all fire blanks. Such heroics using ammo that you know was extremely lethal, so lethal in fact the law Enforcement community uses it and they can only in the most grave of circumstances. How doed that make you feel? I asked how does that make you feel knowing you would be doing great bodily harm to a 3 time repeat criminal? These law Enforcement Officers have been trained. Who do you think you are? I know, you don't have to tell me you are the perverted monster that thinks smelling Hoppes #9 is better than XXX#9. You are sick, perverted and planned for years to use that ammo on some poor criminal that only meant to rape your kids and kill you and your wife. Such gall and what a evil warped mind you have for using ammo that is supposed to be for police because it is sooooo dangerous! etc etc etc.

Actually I feel if you say it enough it becomes fact.

 

[McGuire]

Jerry and McGuire, you'd be terrible lawyers. You are too logical!

Thank God, I was getting worried for a minute there...Im much better at shooting people with super zombie ammo...OH I mean I plead the 5th...

 

[Adam Striegel]

To be honest, knowing that there are legit defense rounds that are the same but out under a different name makes me feel better. I had just never seen these type of rounds before and wanted to make sure it wasn't some big no-no to be packing them. I think as long as it's a defense round sold over the counter and readily available, then there's not much they're going to be able to do to you unless you reload to finish shooting the intruder. heh

 

[nikatkimber]

Death valley magazine had an article on how not to act after a self defense shoot. He pretty much said don't be standing in your yard with your level iv stand alone plates in your Crye JPC plate carrier with your mich level iiia helmet and pvs 14 night vision with your AR15 and beta mag eating a ham and chese sandwich bragging to your neighbor how you capped his ass when the cops show up.
He said wetting your pants isn't a bad idea.
If somebody breaks into my house and I fear for my or my wife's safety, I'm going to shoot them. But I won't be happy about it. You know how hard blood is to get out of carpet??

Funny!

But I think the carpet issue is easy. Just a phone call away from the carpet guy coming in and replacing it!

I think with the amount of blood that would be involved, I'd just replace the carpet, and paint the walls.

 

[Adam Striegel]

Funny!

But I think the carpet issue is easy. Just a phone call away from the carpet guy coming in and replacing it!

I think with the amount of blood that would be involved, I'd just replace the carpet, and paint the walls.

Actually you have to have special crime scene clean up people come in first to decontaminate everything. There's not telling what is in a person's blood ... blah

 

[nikatkimber]

One thing to consider is the civil case after you are cleared of criminal charges. I have heard of more lawyer nonsense coming up in these trials. Kinda like throwing everything out and seeing what sticks. There have even been cases where the argument was why did you shoot the bad guy more than once. I think the above referenced book had a case where the lawyers were arguing the defendant (good guy) had malice in his heart because he carried two back up magazines. The defense was that is what cops do. It worked.

Anything you can do to first avoid a bad situation and then minimize evidence against you is a good thing.

That's one nice thing about our laws. If your shoot is ruled justified, then you are immune from civil suits on that issue.

 

[nikatkimber]

Actually you have to have special crime scene clean up people come in first to decontaminate everything. There's not telling what is in a person's blood ... blah

I forgot my smileys... was trying to be funny. :jester:

 

[Adam Striegel]

That's one nice thing about our laws. If your shoot is ruled justified, then you are immune from civil suits on that issue.

Didn't know that, that's good.

I always cringe when I hear about some jackass trying to break into a house, falls through a skylight and impales himself on a kitchen knife, then his family sues for wrongful death or some crazy thing like that. heh