Rules Discussion

[The Antichrome]

The term "make ready" does not suddenly make the gun unsafe. If he dropped his gun standing in the box and one of our many un official RO's such as me said "make it hot" rather than the official "make ready" then the shooter bumps his gun and it hits the floor unloaded is it a DQ? Nope! The official range command was not given and the gun was not hot. Holster up and try again. You see my point?

In that case, it's time to involve the RM. (actually ALL DQ's must involve the RM)
He will:
1. DQ the shooter.
2. Correct, Reprimand, or eject the unsafe RO.

Look Jesse,
Two well establish, respected, internationally recognized organizations have studied the history of shooting sports and the history of firearms use in general. They used the information garnered and literally wrote the book on safety for that specific sport. They continue to study all issues involved and make adjustments as the sport evolves. Even with the variable of common human error...our sport has a fantastic safety record because of this.
But its ok for some guy who happens to be holding the timer to determine that its 'ok' to directly contradict a very specific safety rule? Nope.

 

[Jeremy Moore]

for breaking the 210.

:s_laugh:

 

[Deathtrap]

I am gonna DQ your ass and make u stay and watch us all shoot and have fun for the next 8 hours next match. I can always find a reason. Just wait! How's that for hate?

If I drop my gun on the ground loaded or not I deserve to watch. This is not a grey area, your gun should never be on the ground even unloaded

 

[The Antichrome]

How about USPA rules DQ'ing the shooters in 3 gun for an entire match when you ground an unsafe gun when outlaw matches DQ you only for a stage?

I will speak only in regard to the established, respected, and recognized organization with 20,000+ members.
A DQ is only handed out for safety violations, or unsportsmanlike conduct. All DQ's are for the entire match, as they should be.
If a shooter commits a safety violation but nobody gets hurt and you DQ him for a stage...then he does it or some other safety violation on the next stage and someone DOES get hurt...How do you feel? You and the match and sports governing body and the sponsors and everyone involved is responsible for someone getting hurt due to lax rules or lax enforcement.

STRICTLY MY OPINION HERE: An 'outlaw' match that only hands out "stage DQ's" is a disaster waiting to happen. It's a travesty and a disservice to the competitors. Liability issues aside, if/when someone gets hurt, how will everyone involved feel, knowing that they failed do all that they could do to make things safe?
This is the first time I've ever heard of such of a thing as a 'stage DQ' and I couldnt have imagined that such a thing existed. It's criminal and I'm appalled.

 

[The Antichrome]

... But I had another scenario happen to me. I had my gun hit the ground once, but it was still in the holster (holster broke off). I didn't touch it and just stood there until the RO came and did his thing. Should I have been DQ'd by rule?

This one is not hard at all. The rules cover this. It all depends on whether it happened during the course of fire or not.
Bladetech holster? I've seen that several times...

 

[Scott Hearn]

This one is not hard at all. The rules cover this. It all depends on whether it happened during the course of fire or not.
Bladetech holster? I've seen that several times...

Nope I wasn't the shooter in the box. I was helping reset the stage after another shooter had shot, bent over to pick up a moonclip to keep it from getting stepped on, and crack... bounce.....%$&^#$%^&*$ !!!

Not sure what holster maker it was. It was a cheapo kydex paddle type though. Haven't seen one like it since.

 

[Pstmstr]

The term "make ready" does not suddenly make the gun unsafe. If he dropped his gun standing in the box and one of our many un official RO's such as me said "make it hot" rather than the official "make ready" then the shooter bumps his gun and it hits the floor unloaded is it a DQ? Nope! The official range command was not given and the gun was not hot. Holster up and try again. You see my point?

I see they point you are trying to make to justify an incorrect situation. A trained RO will use the proper range commands, and enforce the rules as written. The more trained and certified RO's we have the better off the sport will be. I'm starting to think by some of your responses that a certain maturity level should be verified before some are allowed to handle a loaded firearm. Stating you would intentionally look for something to DQ someone for in one post, then stating you don't like range nazis in another reminds me of a politician. In another you state all the rules should be enforced Perhaps you should pick one position to stick to. The rules are there for a reason, to be enforced fairly for each shooter. Anything less is more than just gaming. Its ok Jesse, we don't hate you, even when your wrong.

 

[jtischauser]

I will speak only in regard to the established, respected, and recognized organization with 20,000+ members.
A DQ is only handed out for safety violations, or unsportsmanlike conduct. All DQ's are for the entire match, as they should be.
If a shooter commits a safety violation but nobody gets hurt and you DQ him for a stage...then he does it or some other safety violation on the next stage and someone DOES get hurt...How do you feel? You and the match and sports governing body and the sponsors and everyone involved is responsible for someone getting hurt due to lax rules or lax enforcement.

STRICTLY MY OPINION HERE: An 'outlaw' match that only hands out "stage DQ's" is a disaster waiting to happen. It's a travesty and a disservice to the competitors. Liability issues aside, if/when someone gets hurt, how will everyone involved feel, knowing that they failed do all that they could do to make things safe?
This is the first time I've ever heard of such of a thing as a 'stage DQ' and I couldnt have imagined that such a thing existed. It's criminal and I'm appalled.

So what happened when you DQ them this match but they come back next match and shoot someone? No guilt? You told him last time right?

 

[TroyF]

This thread has solidified my position that I never want to go to RO class.....

 

[Pstmstr]

It's solidified mine that we need more trained RO's. Anyone ready for my next scenario question?

 

[The Antichrome]

I understand what you are saying and you might want to have that addressed in the rules.

The rules cover this situation. It revolves around whether he handled his gun or not.

 

[TroyF]

Go for it....

 

[The Antichrome]

Nope I wasn't the shooter in the box. I was helping reset the stage after another shooter had shot, bent over to pick up a moonclip to keep it from getting stepped on, and crack... bounce.....%$&^#$%^&*$ !!!

The rules cover this to a 'T' ...no DQ when proper procedure is followed.

 

[The Antichrome]

I see they point you are trying to make to justify an incorrect situation. ...

In other words; Two wrongs dont make a right.

 

[jtischauser]

That's what I was alluding to in my post above. It should be real clear as to why the rules that pstmster quoted are the way they are.

So why aren't you DQ'd when you drop a gun behind everyone while your shooting the elephant dung with your buddy's? how do I know your dumb ass didn't go to the safety area and load it up. I mean you were stupid enough to drop it how do I know how stupid you really are?

 

[The Antichrome]

So what happened when you DQ them this match but they come back next match and shoot someone? No guilt? You told him last time right?

No guilt? Very little. I did my part, I followed the rules. Its a damn shame, but I tried.
Now, knowing that he had a safety issue last time I RO'd him...I'll be dilligent this time.
Most shooters who DQ more than a few times tend to leave the sport. Usually of their own volition.

 

[The Antichrome]

I am gonna DQ your ass and make u stay and watch us all shoot and have fun for the next 8 hours next match. I can always find a reason. Just wait! How's that for hate?

There are rules to cover this. (yes, I know youre kidding!)

 

[The Antichrome]

So why aren't you DQ'd when you drop a gun behind everyone while your shooting the elephant dung with your buddy's? how do I know your dumb ass didn't go to the safety area and load it up. I mean you were stupid enough to drop it how do I know how stupid you really are?

You wont find this phrase in the rulebook, but 'elephant dung happens'
The rulemakers wrote out a specific procedure for how gun drops are handled outside the COF. Not complex at all.
Inside the COF (between 'make ready' and 'range is clear') the shooter is expected to have as near as 100% control of his gun as is possible. Yes, its an accident, but, dropping it clearly shows that he wasnt in control of the situation. Its not complex at all.

 

[The Antichrome]

I firmly Believe that these two organizations can't make enough rules to cover everything and take the human aspect of a judgement call out of the equation. If I RO a shooter that clearly isnt in control i treat his actions with a different approach. If i RO soneone like Robert i take a different approach.

I lost respect for the "system" when I was DQ'd at Area 4 because the RO's thought they saw a round go over the berm. Even though there was video and witnesses that saw it different.

Actually, the human equation is still there...the RO has to decide if the muzzle was past 180 etc (he doesnt have protractor and he doesnt have the benefit of video review)
The idea has been to use a few rules as possible, and keep them simple.


I could talk about your Area 4 experience all day long.
My position on it might surprise you.

 

[Scott Hearn]

So why aren't you DQ'd when you drop a gun behind everyone while your shooting the elephant dung with your buddy's? how do I know your dumb ass didn't go to the safety area and load it up. I mean you were stupid enough to drop it how do I know how stupid you really are?

Well Jesse, if you read the posts jermaine to this, you would see:

1) That I wasn't handling the gun, therefore I didn't drop it in the sense that postmstr opined.
2) The gun was still in it's holster.
3) The RO confirmed that my dumb ass didn't go to the safety area and load it up when he came and picked it up and checked for it for clear.

Hence the no DQ....