NFA Gun Trust: Legality?

Tigerstripe · Mar 20, 2014

well if i can list bullets as expensises the gov is going to owe me.

RK3369 · Mar 20, 2014

Well, I suppose you could make the argument that you had to shoot the weapon to maintain it's performance and usability, which to some degree, is true. It's at least a logical argument to make as far as adding to the cost of the item. If you spend enough on ammo, it might be worth a try. Luck of the draw, the return might get audited and it might not, but it's not anything to loose sleep over until you get the audit notice.

armaborealis · Mar 29, 2014

Gamecock24 said:
Can anyone suggest some more lawyers to set up a trust? I saw some recommendations on silencershop.com but they are all out of state. I did a search for sc gun trust lawyers and came across these guys http://www.nosaljeterlaw.com/
I emailed them and they quoted me $600 to form the trust I thought that seemed high considering some of the out of state guys will do it for $200-300. If you have suggestions and can say what it cost please share.

Look up Mark Schnee in Columbia. He did good work with mine and it was cheap.
Reviews: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_8_34/48904 ... lina_.html

armaborealis · Mar 29, 2014

RK3369 said:
So, as with other trusts, are these trusts required to file an annual tax return and pay any applicable trust taxes? Or are they specifically exempted from trust taxes because they typically would just be a holding "entity" for the ownership of class II firearms, on which all applicable taxes had been paid? I'm curious because that could add an additional annual cost to maintaining the trust, especially if you had to pay someone to prepare the applicable trust tax returns.

Sorry, should have looked at the regs first. Apparently no return is required if there is no trust taxable income, or gross trust income is below $600, or there is no foreign beneficiary, otherwise an annual trust return would be required. So, I guess it's a matter of keeping any income earning assets out of the trust so as not to generate any trust income, then no tax returns are required, however if a weapon were sold, then there could possibly be an income tax return required if the sale or total sales for the year exceeded $600 in gross income.

Bingo. I would not be scared out of using an NFA trust out of fear that you might get audited and ATF might invalidate your trust.

I'd wager that the vast majority of people using trusts are using them for cans and SBRs, not MGs. As long as you only sell one NFA item a year, with a can or SBR lower I'd be surprised if you cleared more than $600 net gain. Simple is better. Don't put anything in your NFA trust other than actual NFA stuff. No bank accounts, no non-NFA guns, certainly no income-producing assets.

Obviously follow the rules. However, if it comes to the point where the administration (or some future one) is systematically auditing NFA owners because they may be political opponents using the IRS as a political tool then... oh, hang on. Hrm. :?

That said if they start playing these games with trust owners I don't think people with stamps to their individual selves will be much safer. The bottom line is that you're already on multiple lists and if the .gov decides to come after you, they will find some way to screw you no matter what. So don't be intimidated out of using an extremely flexible, legal, and helpful tool for NFA ownership because of the possibility that you might open yourself up to yet one more way of being screwed.

Gamecock24 · Apr 4, 2014

armaborealis said:
Gamecock24 said:

Can anyone suggest some more lawyers to set up a trust? I saw some recommendations on silencershop.com but they are all out of state. I did a search for sc gun trust lawyers and came across these guys http://www.nosaljeterlaw.com/
I emailed them and they quoted me $600 to form the trust I thought that seemed high considering some of the out of state guys will do it for $200-300. If you have suggestions and can say what it cost please share.

Click to expand...

Look up Mark Schnee in Columbia. He did good work with mine and it was cheap.
Reviews: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_8_34/48904 ... lina_.html

Dang I wish I had seen that in time. I just got the ball rolling on my trust with Robert Merting as was suggest in another post. He's in Greeneville and I'm in Columbia but I guess that doesn't really matter in the end. Thanks though. The main things is my trust is my is being formed. Now do I want a surrpressor or SBR for the first NFA item?

rotarymike · Apr 4, 2014

I finally went with Steve Shaw, as even though I'm a lawyer I didn't have a lot of hands-on with NFA trusts and there are differences from a regular trust. $250 and pretty quick.

Now to get the form 1 off so I can make my delisle carbine copy...

armaborealis · Apr 4, 2014

Gamecock24 said:
armaborealis said:

Gamecock24 said:

Can anyone suggest some more lawyers to set up a trust? I saw some recommendations on silencershop.com but they are all out of state. I did a search for sc gun trust lawyers and came across these guys http://www.nosaljeterlaw.com/
I emailed them and they quoted me $600 to form the trust I thought that seemed high considering some of the out of state guys will do it for $200-300. If you have suggestions and can say what it cost please share.

Click to expand...

Look up Mark Schnee in Columbia. He did good work with mine and it was cheap.
Reviews: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_8_34/48904 ... lina_.html

Click to expand...

Dang I wish I had seen that in time. I just got the ball rolling on my trust with Robert Merting as was suggest in another post. He's in Greeneville and I'm in Columbia but I guess that doesn't really matter in the end. Thanks though. The main things is my trust is my is being formed. Now do I want a surrpressor or SBR for the first NFA item?

Get both!

I have a stamp pending on an AR lower. It is very convenient as you can change configurations easily, and until the stamp comes through you can just put the short upper on a pistol lower.

melloyello · Sep 26, 2014

I received 2 of the 3 suppressors I ordering this year all using the $199 NFA Trust at the $99 special.

The first one was in stock at ATP and purchased in Jan 2014 (paper method filing) - received in August.
The second one was ordered through HHB in March, in stock at Innovative Arms, eforms through the whole process and transferred to me in June.
The third one was ordered from Silencer Shop through HHB and needed NFA approval to make (ordered in March).
NFA approval manufacture and then transferred to HHB in late May via eforms.
Eforms for final transfer to me was down, so submitted in June (paper method), so I expect around Jan.

urbancommandox · Oct 6, 2014

Alpears schnee is dokng free truste right now. Since that form 1 for a machine gun trust went through there trying to crank out as many trusts as possible

melloyello · Oct 7, 2014

urbancommandox said:
Alpears schnee is dokng free truste right now. Since that form 1 for a machine gun trust went through there trying to crank out as many trusts as possible

I thought those MG NFA approvals were later revoked by ATF?

urbancommandox · Oct 9, 2014

melloyello said:
urbancommandox said:

Alpears schnee is dokng free truste right now. Since that form 1 for a machine gun trust went through there trying to crank out as many trusts as possible

Click to expand...

I thought those MG NFA approvals were later revoked by ATF?

Its going to court. The stamp was approved and sent. The guy received the samp. Then the atf asked him to send the stamp back. I think he refused to send it back. Basically in the sc home town forum and gd forum of ar15.com you can find the links. From what i gather a person isnt allowed to manufacture a postie machine gun but a trust isnt a person so that might be the grounds of the court case. I havent read it all but it is interesti g.